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"Eating kale on a date is hardly what I call romantic," Bail pointed out.

Bail liked this simple touch of Ben's fingers. Sometimes, the simplest things are the most impactful.

"To pull off a big surprise, you have to know everything about the other person, all their likes, dislikes, their general mood, their current mood. If you pull it off, and the other person enjoys it, that's wonderful. But the potential for failure is high, and it can range from mild disappointment to actually harming the other person. I much prefer communication than leaving everything to luck and chance."

"I have some very mixed feelings about romance," Ben admitted, openly and without a single bit of hesitation. He really was pretty relaxed, especially within the context of the day they had had.

He glanced up at Bail at the rest, though. "That isn't a lack of wit. That's the presence of caution, and care, and respect, and deliberateness." There was a difference, he thought.

If Ben wanted to call it presence of caution and care, Bail didn't object.

Besides, he was more interested in something else.

"What are your feelings about romance?"

"That it's a mixed bag." He smiled, slightly. "When you hear romance, what most people think of is... candlelit diners, moonlight walks on a beach, or rose petal strewn paths. The... showmanship. I am not going to pretend that I am above enjoying a good show, especially if it's a reflection of feeling." What with his love of performing and all, that's probably pretty damn clear. "It's fun sometimes, but it isn't substance. When the show replaces the substance, all you have is a very pretty house of cards."

Edited 2020-06-06 19:53 (UTC)

"Is that what you think romance is?" Bail asked. He was curious, not argumentative, it was good to know what Ben thought.

He had to mull that question over longer than he had the previous one and was silent for a little bit. "I'm not really sure I think romance is anything particular, to be honest. Just caring about someone and actions reflecting it, within the context of a... romantic relationship and if you ask me to define that one I'm going to be forced to resort to googling dictionary definitions. Possibly dictionary definitions of art, while I'm at it." That last bit was a soft, gentle, tease.

The "Hmmm," Bail said revealed his amusement. Part of him was tempted to ask what Ben considered this, what they were doing right now. But maybe he'd ask that later.

"But I think you should define romantic relationship. I want to hear you're take on it.

He groaned deeply and exaggeratedly, rolled onto his hip to get his phone out of his pocket, unlocked it and asked google for a definition.

From there he pulled up the wiki link, scanned the pages and pages of theories and psychology and actually groaned again, this time less playfully.

" I am not reading all of that, so you're getting my thoughts. It's an intimate relationship that isn't familial and for me includes sexual attraction and some level of commitment or desire for commitment."

Despite how the evening started, this was nice. And Bail was enjoying himself. He liked playfully making Ben squirm just a little bit.

"Is that what you're looking for?" Bail asked.

"In life? Generally, yes. From dating? I think dating is more a... getting to know you and extended period of negotiation." He was more comfortable with this talk than he would have expected. More confident and willing to just put himself out there.

"What are you negotiating?" Bail asked with a raised eyebrow.

He raised both of his eyebrows in return. "Sharing a life. Even at early stages it's ... a relationship and that's always give and take and back and forth. With a new person it's all unknowns, from sex to where you're eating to who's planning the date or paying for it."

"We seem to have planning dates and where to eat and pay covered," Bail said. But did he skip over one of the things Ben had listed?

"For now." He smiled, warm and pretty comfortable considering the day he'd had. "Though it still leaves sex. ...How vanilla are you?" There was no wrong answer, it was a starting place.

Bail was idly thinking about licking Ben's fingers and to keep that just a thought (for now) he threaded their hands together.

"You want to know what kinks I'm into?" Bail rephrased the question. "Outside the incorporation of very mild pain, I really haven't explored any kinks in a practical way. Academically, there isn't anything I haven't studied. That isn't a ... weird brag, I just know a lot from studying psychology, I can't not know."

"I mean, I am interested, but right now the question is more whether you're open to the idea and much more importantly whether your academic understanding involves a belief that it can be healthy or if it is necessarily a maladaptive coping mechanism."

Look, it was not a thing people didn't have opinions about, even professionals who had studied psychology in general.

At this point, it really became clear to Bail that Ben was cautiously revealing a part of himself that was quite vulnerable. Which was surprising for how the evening started. Bail appreciated Ben's willingness to show him this.

"As a general rule, I believe people can turn anything into a maladaptive coping mechanism. Like everything people do, that is dependent on the person and their individual circumstances. Kink isn't inherently any less healthy than other lifestyle choices. I think when practice ethically and consensually, kink is healthy. And I can't say anything about whether or not it's fun, because I haven't personally tried much, as I just said, but from what I can tell outside looking in, it can absolutely be enjoyable and desirable."

"Provided that you don't believe it's inherently 'crazy' or 'self-destructive', we're okay. Or have the potential to be okay. It isn't as though it is an enormous part of my day to day life or I need it even in sex. That said my bed was selected with bondage in mind, so if you want to explore and experiment I'm there for it."

He yawned, stretched and outright cuddled in against Bail. "I've been playing with it for a long time. And God help the world if some of the people I met early on ever see the state of my back. They are going to be out for someone's blood, and I don't know how I'd even begin to explain to them that it isn't what they'd think...."

Except in many ways it was exactly what they'd think.

Mention of consent may have triggered something there, too.

Edited 2020-06-08 16:58 (UTC)

"I don't think that at all," Bail said. "I'm willing to talk about what you enjoy more." He couldn't say for sure if he was willing to do something unless he knew details, so he didn't want to give a definitive 'yes' right now. But he was certainly willing to hear Ben out and consider if he would be comfortable with certain activities.

But, he felt a mood shift in Ben, the way he brought up his new scars again...

"You don't have to explain anyone anything about your body. It is none of their business if you don't want it to be." He paused for a moment before adding, "It's a small thing, but you still have that control."

"Good news, bad news: I'm not likely to see any of those people again any time soon and definitely not naked. On the other hand I am not telling people who know and are concerned about seeing me with whip marks that it's none of their business."

He rubbed at his face with one hand and then gave his hand back to Bail. "I'll figure something out. You're right, I do still have control over how to handle it, and it's not like all that many people have to see me anything but fully dressed." Costume designers basically, though he'd have to work around people he's worked with before.

...He was going back to talking about sex soon. It was way easier.

Edited (just removing extra words) 2020-06-08 17:10 (UTC)

Bail immediately rethreaded their fingers when Ben's hand was back in his.

"That is understandable. You can figure this out as you go. This is one of those situations where your reaction to it and to how others react to it can evolve over time."

He squeezed Bail's hand, solid and warm. He knew he was heard and he appreciated that.

"So, you were talking about light pain and lack of experience but lots of academic knowledge earlier. Tell me more about what you have done that you're not quite counting?" Was he seeking refuge in that conversation while he continued to process?

A little, yeah.

If this is what Ben wanted to talk about (some more), Bail was willing.

Their whole night didn't have to be a deep discussion about the ways Ben could respond to people commenting about his back.

"Scratching, biting, hair pulling - but those are things lots of people during vanilla sex," to borrow Ben's word choice. "So I guess I've been quite vanilla in the past. What have you done- and are interested in doing more of?"

"I'm not sure that I would consider those not kinky," he said, thoughtfully but honestly and directly. "Because they're ultimately still hinging on enjoying either giving or receiving pain, at the very least. Throw in some elements of even playful punishment, or controlling and you've got the whole spectrum in just grabbing someone's hair hard enough to sting or biting at them in playful retribution for a bad joke."

He's not dismissing Bail at all, quite the contrary but that question -

"Um. That's a lot. I guess the shorter answer would be that I like sex, intimacy, and physical and mental challenge with sex. I don't get much more sadistic or controlling than the playful biting and grabbing at hair or scratching - or, well, being super aware that my partner loves it at which point it's sort of... service topping, and the lines blur again."

"I supposed the difference is that when I've done those things, they were... more just reactive in the moment and fleeting, not done with a forethought about enhancing the experience."

Bail added playfully, "So what's the bed for?" As far as Bail knew, one didn't need a specific bed to indulge in hair pulling alone.

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CW: Sex/Kink talk starting here-ish.

Re: CW: Sex/Kink talk starting here-ish.

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